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posted
01/22/10 10:56 AM
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updated
01/22/10 10:59 AM
North to Aloha: Community weighs in on streetcar's path across Capitol Hill
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lauren.p
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Aloha
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| I completely support taking the streetcar all the way to Aloha. | |
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Comment by
--
7 months ago
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...the whole banana, yes
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Great work from the Cap. Hill Council. I agree with every line of the proposal; if Bwy. is narrower, delivery is an issue as there are few alley slots and trucks park in the mid street for delivery. Cops and Fire too. Getting the extension to Alhoa now is good planning. Won't be cheaper later and why disrupt TWICE - build it now in one shot, and it will boost the north end. In a recession there should be some cheap bids too, another bonus. Population density would say better ridership too. On to the build - Union to Aloha!!! |
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Comment by
Mike with curls
7 months ago
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Great ideas!
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| It is really good that the Community Council is stepping up on this. When I have asked Ethan Melone about the extension he made it clear that it is up to the community to lobby the City Council and Mayor McGinn on this issue. They need to give SDOT funding to do a study of the extension. What we have here is a good starting point, to show the City what we want out of this streetcar. I hope the Chamber of Commerce will also get involved, since the streetcar would have a huge impact on the businesses involved. I love these graphics too--thanks for including curb bulbs. | |
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Comment by
Zef Wagner
7 months ago
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Great job
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Thank you all for taking up this vital issue. I'm as proud of you as I am of my real children. Andrew |
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Comment by
Andrew Taylor
7 months ago
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Excellent, thoughtful analysis
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| What is so impressive about the CHCC position paper is that it addresses both transit AND community goals and issues, considers previous plans and future challenges, and shows the way forward in a clear, well-written manner. Bravo to those responsible. | |
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Comment by
Kayzel
7 months ago
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Street Car
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| Kudos to those who organized, developed and presented last evening's Position documents on the Street Car topic. Well written, cogent, and presented knowledgably and confidently. Well done! Now is the time to encourage a commitment of as many community members, businesses and organizations as can be mustered. Again, a fine first step. | |
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Comment by
Brad Trenary
7 months ago
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12th & Aloha
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You know what would be really be cool? A full loop of 12th/Broadway/Aloha, going both directions (i.e., run the streetcar on 12th all the way to Aloha, then looping around to 10th/Broadway). This northern section is entirely residential (but very densely populated), but it's also close enough to the 15th Ave business district. As it is Capitol Hill is woefully under served with one light rail station, which is why the whole "First Hill street car" argument seems silly to me. First Hill is considerably smaller than Capitol Hill, with fewer people, and it's much closer to Downtown (and several light rail stations). |
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Comment by
Erik
7 months ago
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12th ... what about the water line?
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Apparently 12th has a water line under it, 42 inch., that will prevent a streetcar on top of it. Ref: Mr Malone, from SDOT, at the forum. So, looks like a trolley would work. |
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Comment by
Mike with curls
7 months ago
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alignment
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| The Broadway alignment with widened sidewalks at stops looks good to me. It preserves parking, gives priority to streetcars (and buses, which could use the same stop like some on the SLUT), and calms traffic. But it better not mean that trolley bus lines go away, or it'll be war. | |
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Comment by
Robert
7 months ago
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North to Aloha
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I was reading Mike with Curls comments about delivery vehicles and I was wondering the exact same thing. Where will those delivery vehicles go, or will a lot of the current street parking be yellow delivery zone only? Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the separated vehicle bikeways, and I wish we had far more like this in the city. And I have a question about the reduced left hand turns off of Broadway. Would SDOT then have dedicated left hand turn lights at intersections of Broadway/Olive/E.John and Broadway/E.Roy St.? How do people on 10th and Harvard feel about a lot more people driving on their streets because they won't be able to turn left on Broadway. For instance, is there going to be a longer line of cars trying to turn left going eastbound on Olive Way at Harvard so that they can then turn right on Harrison St. for the Broadway Market parking garage? Great design works, but a solution for one street might make things bad on another street. |
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Comment by
ProstSeattle
7 months ago
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RE: North to Aloha
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Tony here from Community Council. Deliveries are a concern, but we are confident that they can be addressed. One solution is to restrict to deliveries to certain hours of the day. Other options include more loading zones or the use of side streets. Somehow, deliveries manage to be made to Pine Street, Bellevue Ave, 15th Ave and 19th Ave despite not having center turn lanes. It's actually probably illegal to park a delivery truck in the middle of the street anyway. We are presenting to the Capitol Hill Chamber of Commerce Tuesday morning to get their feedback. Initial conversations have been very positive. Our proposal calls for maintaining the center turn lanes at the major intersections including Pine St, John/Olive and possibly Roy. At these intersections, one could simply remove one lane of parking on one side of the street for about 3 to 4 car lengths in order to make room for the road to "flare out" into a 3 lane configuration, similar to what happens on other two-lane streets that widen to 3 lanes at the intersections. The overall impact on parking would be very minimal, much less than if SDOT were to try to make room for bikes by removing an entire lane of parking, which is what one of their current proposals entails. In fact, because our proposal suggests consolidating the bus and streetcar stops to be one and the same, we actually maintain more on-street parking than the status quo. With respect to impacts on side streets, left turns would likely only need to be prohibited show more during rush hour if at all. People turn left on two-lane streets all the time. We are relying on SDOT to study the impact of our proposal and develop any mitigation strategies necessary. No solution is perfect and some level of tradeoff will need to be made, but let's be clear about one thing: simply putting the streetcar two-ways on Broadway without changes to the right of way is not an option. There is a significant bicycle-streetcar conflict which can only be resolved in one of three ways: 1.) One-way on Broadway (i.e. SDOT's "Park Loop" option) 2.) Taking out a lane of parking 3.) Taking out the turn lane Option 1 would make it impossible to extend to Aloha and option 2 would meet with such a backlash from businesses that it would be a non-starter. That leaves option 3. If the tradeoffs are considered too much to bear, than Capitol Hill will have to abandon its desire to see the streetcar extend to the north. Nothing's easy. |
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Comment by
Tony Russo
7 months ago
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RE: North to Aloha
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Tony, Thank you for the feedback. I agree that nothing is easy, and I don't envy the choices that are made. Thanks for the clarification for the choices that were made, as it makes things much more understandable. As a Capitol Hill resident off and on since 1987, I agree that this is a once in a generation opportunity to make some wonderful substantive changes. Good work. |
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Comment by
ProstSeattle
7 months ago
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RE: North to Aloha
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I agree with the posters here about extending the streetcar to Aloha. Great job community council! However, the thought of creating a two-way bike path on one side of the roadway is a very dangerous proposal. First, it is likely that with any large group of pedestrians that they will fan out into the bike path causing problems there. Second, at intersections, there will likely be an increase in accidents from motorists simply not seeing a bicycle. Check out this graphic and you'll see that it isn't just a case of a bad driver but bad design. http://www.richardcmoeur.com/docs/bikepres.pdf (Check out pages 20 through 23) |
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Comment by
Mike
7 months ago
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RE: North to Aloha
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| The two-way bike path is a fun idea to toy with. I believe they are usually found on one-way streets but not unheard of on a two way street. Consider replacing the center turn lane as the two-way physically separated bicycle facility. That seems the best way to keep the streetcar and bicycle facility from interfering with each other. | |
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Comment by
wes kirkman
7 months ago
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RE: North to Aloha
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| Regarding the two way bike paths on one side of the road, they are quite prevalent in Amsterdam, NL. Now, in Amsterdam, bikes seem to have the right of way over everything, but as a pedestrian, you know to keep the heck out of the way of the bikeways. They are a very efficient way to move bike traffic, and its great that its traffic separated as well. We don't have anything like this in Seattle yet, and I think you'll all be amazed at how well it works. Once you see it, every commercial neighborhood will be clamoring for a similar bikeway. At least I think they will. | |
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Comment by
ProstSeattle
7 months ago
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No First Hill???
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| I thought the voters approved this in order to serve First Hill. Have I missed something? Erik, do you realize how many people work and live in the center of First Hill. And, the slog downtown and back uptown to Light Rail is not easy. Having said this I agree with the great thought that went into this recommendation. Broadway to Aloha would be great. 11th seems nutty to me. | |
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Comment by
jeff
7 months ago
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RE: No First Hill???
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http://your.kingcounty.gov/elections/contests/measureinfo.as Here is the language from the voter's guide: Light rail extensions will provide frequent service on exclusive track between employment and residential centers, including Northgate, Shoreline, Lynnwood, Mercer Island, Bellevue, Redmond, Des Moines, and Federal Way. Streetcars will connect light rail to Seattle’s International District, First Hill and Capitol Hill. So, the argument can be made for 12th avenue, as well as stopping at the Capitol Hill light rail station. I'm on board with the Aloha St. extension, however, as well as the Community Council's recommendations. However, I just wanted to point out what was stated in the voter's guide, as those who are advocating 12th avenue do have an agument. |
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Comment by
ProstSeattle
7 months ago
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Will Cause Broadway Congestion
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| While I like the idea of the streetcar running along Broadway, removing the left turn lanes will cause a lot of havoc. I would not support having the streetcar travel all the way to Aloha if it meant removing the left turn lanes. Plus, Aloha extends beyond the retail district and is a major thoroughfare for automobiles... it would make far more sense to terminate the streetcar at Republican or Mercer. Streetcar riders wouldn't be afraid to walk a block or two. | |
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Comment by
Reddog
7 months ago
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